Authentic Sales Conversations with Ann Hession: Shifting Perspectives and Prioritizing Relationships

Speaker: 00:00:00

Catharine O'Leary: Hey everyone, welcome back to kickstart the conversation. I am very excited to have Ann Hession in the house today. And I have met recently at a retreat. But we have been in each other's kind of orbit for a couple of years. Yeah, never really quite connected, but kind of like you know, like I was at an event with her husband actually in New Orleans and and we connected there and and and I actually got to connect which is awesome. Just recently and she is here today to talk about something that some of you may not want to talk about but need to talk about because it's like the lifeblood of your business, which is you know, the the four letter word sales within us. But and is the woowoo sales expert who helps healers, coaches and solopreneurs, who have amazing gifts for the world, but are allergic to sales. She created a six figure energy healing practice and has millions in sales and she'll help you to confidently grow your business without ever feeling fake, pushy, or salesy, which we all hear all the time that I don't want to feel like I'm a used car salesman, because it's icky. And I don't know how to make an offer that's not icky. And how do we how do we take the ick at a sales Ann

Ann Hession: 00:01:27

getting icky just when you talk?

Ann Hession: 00:01:29

Catharine O'Leary: No. Right? And I know I need a shower. Yeah.

Ann Hession: 00:01:34

I mean, there's a lot of ways. I mean, gosh, there's so many ways I could answer that question. Right. On the one hand, you know, one of the ways is like is like you don't put the chicken in the first place. And we can talk about that. However, the reality is this, it's kind of already there. Right? Like the listening that you are speaking to the filter that you're speaking to, the filter that we all just culturally have about sales is mostly negative. Right? Yes, car salesman, pushy salesy, needy, deceptive, manipulative, all of those, right. We could go on, I do this as an exercise. And I have people just like spit out all this stuff. And it's me put it like in a word cloud, and it's like,

Ann Hession: 00:02:23

Catharine O'Leary: oh, yeah, it's all the key words.

Ann Hession: 00:02:26

Yeah. Right. And so, and we, so we all have that to one degree or another. Even if you're like me, and I used to be allergic to sales, I used to, you know, be terrible at it and hated the idea. And now I love the sales. And so that transformation is possible. But even for me, who I love sales, by the sales conversation come up, I'm like, great, you know, like, I get to connect with someone, I get to see what's going on in their world, I get to see if I can help them. And if I can't, you know, help them with what I do. I can recommend something else. And like, that sounds great. Right? So that's how I relate to it. Even I still got some of that negative stuff. It's still there. Right? Because, and I but even more, so I know, it's there in who I'm speaking to. So we didn't I mean, like, you can't just pretend, oh, let's just I'm just going to be positive about sales. It's in the back of mind, you're gonna be like, Yeah, but they're not.

Ann Hession: 00:03:24

Catharine O'Leary: Yeah.

Ann Hession: 00:03:27

And so I think you have to, you just have to be aware of that. Right, that that's what's going on and not not pretend that it isn't. And inside of that there's a place to be to be powerful with it, and to be different. And the one of the things I will say so we all if I asked anybody listening, you know, tell me about some horrible sales experience that you had, I mean, being sold to we can also talk about times you fell flat on your face and doing sales but but being sold to everybody can come up with some stories, right? The you know, telemarketer dinner time, the used car salesman, whatever. We've all had experiences where someone was, they were pressuring, they weren't listening. They weren't paying attention. They weren't really trying, you know, they were just trying to sell something. And now without really knowing whether it was what we needed, where it we've all had that. But we've all had great sales experiences, too. Yes. Right. We've all had people that were awesome. You would send your mom back to that person to buy from that. Right? You and that's like my gold standard. Would you send your mom? Right? They are 100%. Yeah. Right. They listen to you, they, they were genuine. They were like being a real human being with you. But they also knew what they were talking about. They weren't just real friendly. And it's like, you know, think of it think of a first time I think of like a waiter or waitress who is a salesperson, right? It's always like soon as you have someone in their group Getting there, you really liked them, but they actually don't know what they're doing. But screw up your order, you're like, Well, I liked them, but Right. So you don't want that in a salesperson, either. You don't want them to just be friendly and nice. You also, you know, they need to know their stuff. They need to be able to speak to that. But you can tell when they know their stuff. They take the time to find out what you what you need, they ask questions, they listen to the answers. They really make recommendations based on what you need, they educate you. So you actually have a better sense of the thing. You know, maybe you came in thinking you wanted this, and they genuinely help you see, not just because it's more, it might even be less expensive, but it's a better fit, right? So think leave, we've all had those experiences, too. Right. And so one of the things I think is really important to do is to keep reminding yourself about that. Yes. And be like that's, that's how I'm gonna do sales.

Ann Hession: 00:05:57

Catharine O'Leary: Which ends up feeling like a consultation. Well, yeah,

Ann Hession: 00:06:02

I mean, that's what my sales calls are called their consultations.

Ann Hession: 00:06:06

Catharine O'Leary: Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, people are still, and we talked about this briefly before we got on, like people still have, like, they're still they're looking for help, because they're in pain. Right? Like they do have a problem. And they're trying to find a solution to said problem.

Ann Hession: 00:06:23

Sometimes it's very urgent and very painful and awful. My roof is leaking right now. My body or sometimes it's something not as urgent, but it's still it's a problem for them.

Ann Hession: 00:06:36

Catharine O'Leary: I think that the, the, the shift that I'm seeing with, with a lot of how we're talking to our ideal clients now, and how we want to be interacting is building that relationship. And you talked a lot about asking questions, but listening to the answers, and then offering solutions, like not going in with a cookie cutter solution to say, Okay, here's, you know, you have this problem, and I have the solution. Here we go. Because that's, you know, a little like proposing marriage on the first date it you know, it doesn't, like you may not you haven't listened. Yeah,

Ann Hession: 00:07:09

and even if it turns out your your cookie cutter solution is actually a great solution for them, they're still not going to let they're not very likely to believe it is if you didn't take the time to find out what it is that they need. And also, honestly, you'll make you'll typically make more sales and better sales, if you do if you do take that time and learn because you then you can make a real recommendation to them. So say

Ann Hession: 00:07:33

Catharine O'Leary: a little bit more of a better sales, because I think I think that's a really, so the point here. So

Ann Hession: 00:07:39

better sales can mean a lot of things, right? Sales that stick, right. In other words, the person like they don't get into this buyer's remorse and wanting to cancel and all that stuff. Sales that have people coming back for more, because you really it was it really was the right thing for them. So now when they want more, they're gonna be I'm gonna go back there, right? Ells that lead to referrals, because again, you You took care of them, you give great service, as far as how part of how you did the sales, it was a good match, they felt taken care of they felt respected, they paid, they would send them on to you. And if they're gonna send their mom, they'll also send their coworker, their aunt, their neighbor, or their whatever. So sales that lead to referrals. All of those are better sales, than sales, that it's like, you just barely kind of made the connection, and they paid you and then they were like, Yeah, but I don't know what to do that again.

Ann Hession: 00:08:30

Catharine O'Leary: Yeah. And so what are the steps that people need to be taking then as you as you build a sales culture or sale? Like or, you know, like, as you build your sales? muscles, I guess, you know, as a solopreneur, as a, you know, somebody that is that is running a business? Like what are the steps that you need to be going through? Like, how do you ready to get started here to get maybe a little more comfortable, I guess, with with making offers and doing sales, I mean,

Ann Hession: 00:09:02

the first, there's so many things I can say about all of this. So the first thing is sales is the single most important skill you need in business, hands down period. But more important, it's more primary and more important than marketing. Marketing is just an expense. If you can't get a sale at the end of it, period. It's not and a lot of people when they're just starting out, they make the mistake of trying, they kind of put the cart before the horse, they try to figure out their marketing before they know how to sell. So they're like, I'm gonna get a website, I'm gonna do it and all this stuff, and they haven't even sold anything yet or that they've had three clients. You don't know what your marketing message is until you've sold a whole bunch of stuff because you have to have those conversations with people to find out. You might think you know why they want what you offer, but you can be very wrong. Right? And you need to, you need to think fine, they will hand you your marketing language, right. Yes, to have those sales conversations in order to figure out What your marketing will be and you can make money without marketing any without, like advertising that I mean, there's like you'd have to do like networking kind of marketing, right, you're going to need to just like shake your own network a bit, let people know what you're doing, right. But you can make sales from that if you know how to sell. And in the process that you will get the information you need to start marketing and move beyond that. But a lot of people just had someone reaching out to me today saying, Hey, I'm just getting started as a healer, which is a lot of who I serve, I'm really getting stuck on my website is that something you can help me with. And even the first thing I was? Well, actually, what I usually recommend is don't go get it, when you're first getting started, I don't recommend you try to get a website, you're gonna get exactly for exactly the reason that you get bogged down, you don't know what you're saying, and having a website and having a website that makes you money, two very different things.

Ann Hession: 00:10:51

Catharine O'Leary: Very different things. And if you don't have the messaging, then what you're putting up is not going to actually resonate. And it might actually do damage in the sense of wasting your time with a whole bunch of unqualified leads.

Ann Hession: 00:11:05

Absolutely. And plus your time, your money, all of that. So I really, you know, to like to steer people away from that and stir them back into getting back to your question. You gotta just get over you. If you don't, if you're like, I don't like sales, and you realize you're trying to avoid sales. You gotta just sorry, you know that all Bob Newhart skits, stop it. Stop it. Out conversations, you need to learn how to sell what you do. And if you're not willing to do that, honestly hanging up, give yourself a break, be kind to yourself and just say I'm not gonna do it if you're not willing to do sales. Don't try to be in business. Right? So, and sales doesn't have to be gross and yucky, and all of those things. So that's, that's why you really do have to make the decision that you're just gonna learn, you're gonna learn how to do sales, because guess what, it's just a set of skills.

Ann Hession: 00:11:59

Catharine O'Leary: It really is just a set of skills. It's just a way of framing your mindset. And, you know, getting into a, I mean, what helps me at least is knowing that when I go into a, any kind of a call like that, where I'm just I'm, I'm trying to be the troubleshooter. I'm trying to be the, you know, tell me more, tell me more like, you know, like, because maybe, maybe I'm not the right person for them. But I know a lot of people so like, I'm okay with saying no, I don't I don't do the sale stuff you should talk to and, and let me connect you with her because I would rather refer them to you or you know, somebody in the network, then try to, you know, like, come out of my zone of genius, or like, you know, try to do something that I'm not good at. Or like, you know, that I don't teach people to do. So I want to have the curiosity and and then it becomes a conversation, a two way conversation not on pitching. Like, I don't even like that word. Like, I'm not pitching. I mean,

Ann Hession: 00:13:02

I think it's a very empowered word. Once you can just if you just make the decision, okay, I'm just gonna and even if you're the other thing I'll say, even if you're a little further along, you actually, you've made a few sales, right? And you realize you're not, you don't suck at it anymore. You like you can do some, but you're not doing as well. And you might be like, Oh, maybe it's time for me to hire a salesperson. You really need to know how to do it yourself before you hire salesperson. Yeah, cuz, right, because a salesperson isn't obvious. First speaking, as someone who's made a living as a salesperson, a salesperson isn't going to want to work for you. If you haven't already figured out how to sell your stuff. I'm just saying like, that's not a gig any salesperson will take?

Ann Hession: 00:13:42

Catharine O'Leary: Well, because if you don't know how to articulate it, how are you going to tell them how to articulate it? I mean, because they're not going to learn your business. That's not what they're there for.

Ann Hession: 00:13:50

Exactly. Right. And I mean, I think they need to learn it some, but like, you have to be able to explain it to them. And so you might as well be doing those sales yourself, right, and not having to pay them. And so, conversely, tried to slash away the things that people are other things that they're putting in so that they don't have to learn sales. It's like, No, you can't do it with Mark. Marketing is not a substitute for sales. No, having a salesperson is not a solution until you you already know how to sell and you've gotten to a certain level of business, I'd say multi six years, typically before it makes any sense to hire a salesperson, except for maybe, like an event or something that would be different, but like, so you don't have that you got to learn it. Just gotta learn it. So how do you learn it? And let's talk about we've kind of started talking before about, you know, the parent paradigms, right? I think so I learned from I'm just gonna say someone like me, and not the there's like some very old to me, they're very outdated paradigms of sales that are out there and that are still being taught and I know because I've taken some of those courses and worked for Are companies where that's more what's happening? And so they're, and they're really coming to this what I consider to be a very outdated paradigm. They're coming from a very male energy. Right? Yes. Yeah, I am not knocking male energy. I love male energy. I have a lot of that myself. And it has a place in sales, there needs to be a little bit of that. But that the old school if you think any, any of you've ever done sales training, you'll recognize, like, what did they say? Look at the language that's used. Every sales training ever has the section on overcoming objections? I mean, that is the language they are literally overcoming them. What are you a bulldozer? You know? I mean, how about listening to them, addressing them, seeing if you can resolve some No, overcome them? That's what's right. You know, always be closing, get out there and crush it. Everything. The language of sales is very male. And honestly, there's, I'm sure there's some industries out there that that still works, but it's fine. It's a good it's a match, right? But for coaches, healers, more kind of service oriented, mission oriented people, it just isn't work. It's just not that's why it feels so yucky. It's not male or female. It that that paradigm, that approach to sales is what feels yucky doesn't work for us. It's not authentic. Right. So the what's becoming, I think more of how sales is taught sold is how sales is sold wholesale, this taught and done. And certainly what what I do that, you know, it's people say heart centered sales, I use that term, I often say soulful sales, right? It is genuinely coming from the more authentic female energy, which is more about relationship and connection. Yes, male energy fundamentally is about the transaction. Yes, right. It's more transactional. And that's important, the transaction is important. But do you really, you know, we were talking earlier about like good sales experiences and bad sales experiences, right? You can tell when the person who has something to sell you is putting the transaction as being more important than the relationship,

Ann Hession: 00:17:18

Catharine O'Leary: you can have a while and I think that those were like when you are in a space where you're almost when you're on that roller coaster in the revenue stream, and you're on the downside, and you kind of need the client, and you kind of need to pay the mortgage, and you start to get into that lack mentality, and like, oh my gosh, oh, my gosh, you do start to put the like, subconsciously even, you put the transaction before the relationship, and that's when people run away, because they know it.

Ann Hession: 00:17:52

And you can tell the difference, you can tell when they're when the person dealing with you is putting the relationship and you as being more important transaction, it doesn't have to, it's not like the relationships this and the transaction here, or they could just be right below it, okay. But it is below it, like you're not going for the transaction at the expense of Yes, being respect, I'm not saying that you can't like put especially you know, for selling stuff like something like coaching, right? I'm not saying you have to just be nice, nice and like, make people comfortable, because honestly, comfort is not going to get them what they want. Right? So you might sell on the street with them. But you can be straight with someone about the difference that something will make for them and where they're, you know, finding out where they were, where they get stuck the things at home this is imagining selling coaching, right, one of the one of the obstacles they face what to do and how what I have to offer can help with that. You can do that in a way where you're kind of holding them accountable a little bit you know, you're just being straight while he is not going to get in different results, they don't do something different right? And they're and accountability and all those things that coaching provides make a huge difference. So you can do all of that. But it's inside of you're still you're being respectful, you're being caring, you're listening, you're responding to that individual in front of you as opposed to a cookie cutter this is how you sell contributor Did you press on this pain point that you press on that? That paper right that's

Ann Hession: 00:19:24

Catharine O'Leary: when we talked about we talked about the pain point a little bit because you know that's that is a lot of what old school teaches is is like camp but but they hammer the pain point and it's like to the point where like honestly, if you don't get this widget you're you like life is over as you know it and here's what's crazy, right

Ann Hession: 00:19:45

so let's say it's something and cooking stands it's a business coaching because everybody listening you know either bought business coaching or had an offer to them whatever and hopefully you'd said yes to some of that. It made a big difference for you because I wouldn't be where I was where I am right now if I didn't still paying a lot for business coaching, and it's working. So, but here's stuff I've seen where people like they present, here's the thing, you know, we've gotten the find out what's going on with you and this and that. And here's the here's the solution. And here's all these stats and all this stuff, right? And then the person still says, No, you know, like, I don't I don't whether they say I can't afford it, or I don't know if I'm ready, or any of the stuff that they say. And honestly, most of what they say is objections is baloney. Well, we can talk about that too. But to them, it's not Baloney, right? So, like you'd listen. But then the salesperson comes back with because they're saying no, this course. Right? Oh, so what you're saying is you're not committed to your business?

Ann Hession: 00:20:45

Catharine O'Leary: Yeah. I've heard that. And that pisses me off.

Ann Hession: 00:20:53

Oh, if someone said that to me, I might punch them. Yeah. Because it's so disrespectful apparently. Because they are. That is I can because as a fellow salesperson, I'm like, you are making all of the all the rest of us look bad. Because that's baloney. Look, it may be true, first of all, sorry, I get very animated about this. I just said that right now. There's like, Ah, it's awful. Yeah, I know. I should flip sides, though. I might say some burden of that to someone. But it wouldn't be coming from Oh, yeah, it would be. So let's really look, how committed are you at this time, to moving forward in your business in in this way? Like, there's no shame about it. It's just like, hey, sometimes people aren't that committed yet. And like, you could just meet them there and like, acknowledge that's not where they are, they're not ready to make that kind of a commitment. That's good for them to be clear about, you know, right. It's not a pressure thing. It's just like, let's really look at that. That's similar words. Oh, totally different place that you're coming from? It's one is one is manipulative. And the other is actually respectful and meeting the person where they are in acknowledging that, hey, not everyone is in a place, you know, emotionally and otherwise ready to make a big commitment. But that's just how it is. It's just straight about it. Right?

Ann Hession: 00:22:18

Catharine O'Leary: Well, and if if the person can walk away with more clarity about what you shouldn't be doing, as opposed to, you know, going to the next webinar or the next masterclass and having the same conversation or getting, you know, now feeling that they do have to spend the money, because now

Ann Hession: 00:22:37

the only way I can prove up committed is to spend money. It's like, yeah, you know, I mean, there's an element of truth to that, let's be honest. Right? But it's Yeah. Is that,

Ann Hession: 00:22:46

Catharine O'Leary: right? It's not a cent. Yeah, it's common. It's more complicated than that. And so if somebody can walk away with some clarity, even if they don't walk away as a client, then like, you still want Yeah,

Ann Hession: 00:22:57

exactly. I, you know, I always say look, a, a clear and empowered. Yes. A clear and empowered No,

Ann Hession: 00:23:07

Catharine O'Leary: not so great. Yes. Also great. Also great. Because really what sales is is and this is my, my dad back in the day, would would tell me this is like, it's not about the transaction. It's about helping people make a decision, yes or no. And being comfortable with that decision when they walk away. So then then you don't have the people say yes, and then you don't need refunds, or whatever. And you're going through that, because they're they're having doubts, because you've kind of pushed them into something that they shouldn't really be doing. But you've also got people that are walking away saying, you know, no, and or No, not right now. Yeah. And talk to me in six months.

Ann Hession: 00:23:47

You are who they'll come back to later when they're ready to you, because of the way you treated them. Right. It's like Maya Angelou. Right. famous quote from her, you know, I've learned that people will forget what you said, they'll forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. And those are the you know, when you remember her someone even though even though they were in sales, right, but they you felt great, because they listened to you. And they they took care of you. Right? And they actually put you as being more important than whether or not they got that kind of shit. And those are the salespeople that actually make the most money. In my experience, because, yeah, really good. They do it because

Ann Hession: 00:24:22

Catharine O'Leary: they put the relationship first. Yes, absolutely. Well, and how can how can people learn a little bit more thinking might have a gift that might help them with learning a bit more

Ann Hession: 00:24:33

about called sales conversation secrets, heart centered sales made simple and it is. It is a great training guide on basically the ins and outs of a sales conversation. Helping people leave sales really is it's just helping people it's guiding them to a decision that actually I'm going to go into tiny little tangent before I come back to the gift. But your dad like people make a decision. Yes or no they feel comfortable with I'm going to To say that they felt competent with. And the reason I say that is because sometimes it's very uncomfortable, but it was still, it was still the right decision. Right? Yeah. Yeah. yourself. It was it was downright scary. It was even terrified. But it was, it was it was a good decision.

Ann Hession: 00:25:18

Catharine O'Leary: If you've ever paid for a high ticket offer, like a really high ticket offer

Ann Hession: 00:25:24

or not present, but confidence. And when you are confident, you can handle

Ann Hession: 00:25:29

Catharine O'Leary: a lot of discomfort. Yes, you'll figure it out.

Ann Hession: 00:25:33

Yeah. So I just wanted to make that one thing back. So back into helping people so it one of the things one of the I'll just say briefly, one of the things that people really where people get really hung up is right at the beginning of conversation, where you know, when someone asks you about what you do, or they asked to find out more about what you do, and a lot of people make the fatal error right then, and they start to answer the question, they start to tell people more, and they just

Ann Hession: 00:26:01

Catharine O'Leary: all of them, learn it all out. Yeah,

Ann Hession: 00:26:03

we've all done it and seen people's eyes glaze over. We all have had it done to us, right? It's happening all over the world right now. Millions of conversations. And what is I actually I call it the Tammy Moore trap. It's the Tammy Moore trap. People say Oh, tell me more about that. Not knowing not realizing that they're laying strapped for you and you fall right, and then you and you pull them in with you because they're like, I didn't really want to know all that. So there are millions of Tell Me More trap conversations happening right now. So this will teach you how to avoid becoming more trapped, what to do instead. And then what additional steps sort of after that initial part to do so that you actually really are connecting from the heart listening, asking good questions, and then in a position, so you can make a recommendation to them at the end of this conversation that was really solid, because you found out what they needed. So it will take you all the way from the Tammy Moore trap into what I call the expert opinion recommendation, which is recommended, people are very likely to respond well to because of everything that led up to it. So that is my free gift to you all. And I think you'll find if you just start applying what you learn in there, it's going to affect it even just to apply step one, if the only thing you do step one, it will make a profound difference in your results.

Ann Hession: 00:27:32

Catharine O'Leary: Because at the end of the day, I mean, we're not saying don't sell that's that's the opposite. Like we are saying sell we are saying offer we are saying you know like serve the people that you're meant to serve and be parried paid fairly for it. 100% But it doesn't have to be like this heavy lifting and this this you know, like you need to have a shower every time you have a conversation.

Ann Hession: 00:27:57

Yeah, I mean, when sales feels like effort, it feels like force. That's the wrong kind of sales. Yeah. Yeah, when sales you're doing it this way, it just feels like a flood.

Ann Hession: 00:28:11

Catharine O'Leary: So though that forgets will be in the shownotes? Folks, so just go in and and even the first one even just like step one and meal.

Ann Hession: 00:28:20

One? Yeah,

Ann Hession: 00:28:21

Catharine O'Leary: I plan. And so Ann any final words, before we leave off any any final kind of a couple of thoughts to leave people with so that they they are embracing sales more?

Ann Hession: 00:28:34

Yeah, I just I think because we have our first so you gotta be straight. The fact that there is all this negativity around sales, right. And like it just be honest, that that's there and that there's some of it in you and some of it and whoever you're talking with, and so don't try to pretend that's not there. Right. And probably because of that we have this, we kind of end up with this belief that like we have to be someone else in order to sell into some other kind of person that we don't want to be. So I want you know, that's 100% not true. Being yourself, like just your authentic self is actually the most important thing in sales. Paired with, it's kind of two most important things at the same time, actually getting the skills, right, if you don't have the skills, and it's just as those skills like you learn how to ride a bike when the plane is right, you can learn this, okay? But if you don't have the skills, this situation requires a course you're gonna fall on your face every time just like if you walked out on stage and you were supposed to be playing an instrument you've never played before. It's not gonna go well, right? So know that you can be yourself and get some skills and this free gift for you is a great place to start. And then you'll you will start to realize that sales can be a really, really wonderful experience. And the bottom line is if you want to make a difference in the world, the way you do that is by selling people stuff. That's how you you gotta sell people your stuff. And when you do, you can change the world. Yeah,

Ann Hession: 00:29:58

Catharine O'Leary: awesome. Change the World, folks. So you can do that with with your sales approach and you can absolutely have fun with it and be yourself and, you know, serve the people that you need to serve in the way that makes the most sense. So thanks, everyone for listening. Thank you, Ann, for joining us on Kickstart The Conversation for everyone out there. Stay curious, ask questions, and we will see you next time. Bye everybody.