Mastering Event Marketing: Strategies for Engagement and Success with Linda Cain from BluDiamond Events

Speaker: 00:00:00

Catharine O'Leary: Hey everybody, welcome back to kickstart the conversation. I'm your host, Catharine O'Leary. And today I have Linda cane with us who from Blue Diamond events. And Linda is actually all about events, whether that's live events or virtual, her diverse background experience planning, whether it's domestic or international events, she's she's been at this for 25 years. And she's found this amazing place to work and design events for her clients who are in really in that transformational coaching and entrepreneur space, where you really want that extraordinary experience for attendees. And then, you know, what a lot of entrepreneurs forget is that when you have an event, you're supposed to actually have a profit margin. So Linda is all about making sure that we actually have a profit margin so that these events don't end up being cost centers. So her team at Blue Diamond events are all about heart and relationship for clients and attendees. She does work very closely, I know some of her clients, and she does work closely with them to map out a full strategy, she will be there to help you with you know, creating repeatable six and seven figure events, design those incredible attendee experiences, and have your clients on a waitlist for your next event. So whether you're hosting small or large virtual or live summits, or retreats or trade shows, or your just good old fashioned hand holding and support, Linda and her team can help you out. So Linda, welcome to kick start the conversation.

Linda Cain: 00:01:40

Hi, so great to be here. And what a great title, kick start the conversation. Any events like I love events, you know that you

Linda Cain: 00:01:50

Catharine O'Leary: do love events, you do love events. And what I love about you is that you geek out. And I love when people geek out on their zone of genius, right? So my zone of genius is not events, my zone of genius is attending events, potentially. But it's not creating and hosting events as of yet at least. And I know that that's your zone of genius. And I see the way that you light up when you talk about events, you have, you know, been able to pivot from live events to virtual events, you know, everyone came through COVID differently. You came through and kind of, you know, pivoted and upped your game on the virtual side of things. Now that we're going back to live events now there's like these talk of hybrid events, and, and so on and so forth. So we have a lot of choices, I think. And I don't think it's one size fits all, for when it when it comes to events. So maybe, maybe you can tell us a little bit more about, you know, how to, I mean, really, the big question is, how do I put it on an event that not only attract my ideal clients, but doesn't put me in debt? Right, like at the end of the day? So I know that there are a lot of different events. So maybe we can start with maybe maybe it's really starting with understanding what event is the right event for you? Exactly.

Linda Cain: 00:03:13

So there are so many different kinds of events. And so we start with four basic structures. So you either do a virtual event, or an in person event, or a destination event, or a hybrid. And a hybrid is where your virtual streaming, you can use platforms like for Avella, or hopped in or zoom. And depending on what you want to create, and then you have people in person with you as well. Now you have to be an actor or an actress, you really have to understand Stage and Stage queues and managing stage when you're doing a hybrid event. Because you're actually going to be doing two events, you're not just doing one, you have to entertain and deliver your presentation to the person sitting there in the audience with you. But you also have this virtual so you have screens up with the virtual people. And so you just have to be able to play back and forth between the virtual and the live audience. And not everyone imagine that can do that and do it effectively. And well. Most of us, it's just enough where we're having the event, whether it's virtual or in person to be able to handle our crowd that we have when we're just doing that one. So but hybrid can be a really good moneymaker for you because if you've got a really high premium, VIP or platinum style elite experience, you can really build out 1020 people to come and be with you and that can be a high ticket, because they're gonna get you every evening. They're gonna get you in the morning before you start streaming It really can change and, and be a very powerful event. So it is for some people, and it's something I think people should strive for. The other one, of course, is virtual. And virtual is fun, because virtual can be people don't like zoom. But come on everybody. This is the new way of doing business. It was here before COVID, a lot of us were already using zoom, do we meetings, we had meetups and things like that, it just wasn't so much. And a larger part of a larger portion of our day can be sitting here. But virtual is still very, very powerful. And the thing that I love about virtual is, within those events, within those four key event types, there's so much you can do, you can choose to do challenges. You can do macro events, you can do webinars, you can do trainings, short chain out, you know, three hour programs, you can do Discovery sessions, open houses, I mean, it's unlimited the design of things that you can do, to do what we call create your event driven business. So that's what we focus on with our clients is, what are you going to create for the year? And how are you going to use events to do it? Among other things? And what type of events are you going to put into those? So understanding the four Do you want virtual in person hybrid, or retreats is going to help you to build out that event driven business. So virtual is is great, because it's the lowest cost that we have available to us. But to have an effective virtual event, you can't just show up in zoom like this and have 100 people, you have to have a formula, you have to have a plan, you have to follow a schedule, you have to be cognizant of who your audiences, do they have kids, do they have elderly parents? Are they caretaking? Are they running other jobs during their day? What is where? Where is your audience coming from to meet you virtually? So how do you best serve them. And what I mean by that is, sometimes it's attended three event, it's not nine to five, sometimes it's not the nine to 11, some people are still trying to do the in person model in the virtual space. And I don't know about you, it's very difficult to sit from eight in the morning till 11 o'clock at night. Especially when it's on one after another session. And the breaks are only 1015 20 minutes, you need bigger breaks. So we've got different formulas for the different kinds of events, to help our clients really focus in on the best delivery, maximizing their profits and maximizing their their ability to build community and communicate their training and do effective training. Then you have live and in person, which are my absolute favorites, they light me up any time that we can be in person. And I don't care if it's 10 people or 1000 people. I'm just I'm an extrovert introvert, I have my quiet time, but I really love being with people. And the thing that I love most about it is watching people connect. And being able to you can see when things people have come together and it's like, oh, yes, let's go do that. And they run off to create something that's really wonderful. So and then there's the destination retreat, or the retreat model, which is also can be virtual, but it's really best done, live and in person. And all four of those can have really great profits, depending on how you break it down.

Linda Cain: 00:08:34

Catharine O'Leary: Right. And I think I think the the first step is probably to talk to you about the strategy, and what you're trying to accomplish before you lock in your head as to what type of event that you want to do. Hey, everyone, I don't know if you notice a little glitch there in our conversation. But like all live events, guess what? We had a glitch. That's what happens. And as you know, entrepreneurs is that professionals, you roll with it. But Linda actually did lose power. I had to completely shut down everything and come back. We are now back live. And we're going to pick up right where we left off, which was first things first before you get into a you know a headspace of I have to do a retreat destination retreat, or like, you know, I have to do virtual versus live. Is it like is it something that you and your team want to sit down and actually talk through? Okay, wait, let's talk about strategy. Let's talk about what we're trying to accomplish here. Let's talk about, you know, what our needs are? Because I think a lot of people jump into, especially at the destination retreat, everyone seems to think that that's going to be like, you know, Oh, I get a free vacation and I can, you know, hang out with all my clients and there's a lot that goes into that. So maybe like what are some of the first things that that entrepreneurs and small business owners really need to kind of think through before they even this Sorry, what kind of event that they should be having?

Linda Cain: 00:10:02

Right? So where are we? So where were we left off and power shortages are real. And being in the virtual space, just like, I'll just segue here for just a moment. But just like being in live in in person. We were doing an event for Lisa Tierney. Some of your audience may know who she is. She has the GFR podcast, and she used to work with was a sales coach with Lisa Sasa, but she was a big coach in our industry. And we had done an event for them. And we were we were at the brand new hotel in Anaheim here, California. And day one was fabulous. Day two was rolling. And we were going and oh, it was just energy. It was it was like the perfect event, the perfect event, the perfect event. And she got into the afternoon, and she was doing her pitch. And everything went dark black. Can you imagine a ballroom of 200 people and it's just dark. And we didn't have us six, seven years ago, we didn't have cell phones like we do. Now we have cell phones, but it wasn't like everybody had one, they might have had a flip phone or something else, right. And so a few little phone lights came on. But the auxilary came on. And the only auxilary that the hotel had was these teeny tiny little floor lights along the sides of the I think there was maybe six lights total was definitely not enough to really illuminate the room. So she kicks her shoes off, she sits down on the edge of the stage, our camera guy was able to put a spotlight that he had from his camera on her. And she said, you know, what I'm just gonna get on my model is get effing real. So I'm just gonna get effing real with you right here on the stage. Here's why you need the program, here's what you need to do. And she went into her pitch, just sitting on the edge of the stage with her feet cut, you know, her shoes cut off and kicked off. And the best out of all the years that we did events with her was like the best cells most profitable event we ever had with her. And it just goes to show that you just have to be willing to bend and go, don't let it stress you out and, and freak you out. And like this, I'm just sitting here talking and all of a sudden, boom, the power is completely gone. Usually it pops right back. This just shut. And I'm on a Mac and necks are particularly touchy sometimes. So you had to shut it all the way down to bring it all the way back up in order to get zoom to work again. Anyway. So that's part of the process. So we're talking about strategy and strategy for the events. These are things that people don't think of. And what had happened to Lisa is a car hit the power pole out in front of the hotel and blacked out two blocks. And we were down for three and a half hours. So we concluded that event in the dark, went to dinner had the best sales ever. And so you just do what you got to do. But you have to have those contingencies, which are part of your strategies. So it's not just about what kind of an event you're going to do? And how is that going to look? And what are you going to teach? What's going to be the, you know, the excursion or the experience? Are you gonna have VIP GA, all those things that are are part of this strategy. But it's, it's it's like, five basic ones preparing. So what are the objective objectives? What are the outcomes? What are you really planning to do at the event? Why do the event? Who do you want to have at that at the event? What's the reason behind it? You know, where's the motivation factor? Then promo? Weather? What's the strategy for filling the room? Are you going to have speakers and sponsors and paid speakers and sponsors? Are you going to give tickets away? What's the ticket pricing all of the promotional pieces that go into it? And in the program itself? What sets you apart from other people doing what you're doing? How is your program going to be different? What are you going to teach? What are you going to? You know, have them be and have an experience? Are you going to go wine tasting? Are you going to do a virtual escape room? What kind of things are you going to do with people? And then your pitch your offer? What are you really going to sell? Know what that conversation is know where you want to take people after that you have to do that before the event. Otherwise, you can't do it at the event and I have had some clients where we have spent the night creating the offer that they're gonna make the next day. I don't recommend it.

Linda Cain: 00:14:42

Catharine O'Leary: And then of course at those events, I know I know who you speak of.

Linda Cain: 00:14:47

And, and then the profit so it's preparing promotion, program pitch and profit. And the profit is that all the strategies around how you can really We reach your goals, and how are the different ways you're going to reach the goals for that event. So if you just take those five key steps and keep those always in mind, whether it's virtual or going a destination, like you said to Europe or someplace, or it's an in person event or your hybrid, those five steps don't change, no matter what you're doing. Even if it's a challenge, even if it's a summit. And I'm, I really think that people forget some of those steps, they just get so into producing or, or getting their event ready or doing an event that they don't look at all those five pieces. And you have to have all those five pieces in order to have a successful event. Which brings me to my favorite, which is small event, big profits. Because because of the way that we can connect with people all over the world now, there's so much that can be done virtually and in person. And retreats are great. Yes, you can have a vacation, as a retreat, make it a working retreat. Where, for example, Leah who's a client of ours, she went to Scotland, and she visited castles and they stayed in a castle, always on her bucket list of what she wanted to do. So we created an event around it. So she had 10 people that went with her, the $7,500 of person to go for the training, they had to get themselves there. But the the stay was included. She She personally walked away with 50k profit just from the entry fee and the budget that it was to run the run the retreat. Then she sold into those 10 people that came with her, she sold them because they did workshops in between excursions, and they worked on their business. And she taught them something and they have their own little roadmap to leave with. At the end of it. She sold them into a year long coaching program with her and she had six of those by an 18k package. So in eight weeks in Scotland, she had over 100k profit net profit to her. She's done that three times a year now with three different trips. That's her model. That's all she does, she does three really high end 10 to 12. People that go on three different kinds of trips with our ones us the other two are international, and then MB and that gets her you know, close to about 30k 300k a year. And then she sprinkles in VIP days, maybe a one day training little tiny programs like Oh, next month, I want to do a blah, blah. And she does. And that gets her up to her half million a year that she wants. Yeah, no, I

Linda Cain: 00:17:49

Catharine O'Leary: love that. I love that idea. I want to because I mean, kickstart the conversation is all about real talk. So, you know, events are a lot of work alone, if you don't have the support behind you. And you don't take the time to do the strategy. And you just decide that I know how to use Zoom. And you invite a whole panel of people into a Zoom Room and think it's a summit or you know, think that it's going to be you know, a three day event that you can handle all by yourself. I've seen people do that. And it's a disaster. Like there's a lot of back end stuff that's going on behind even in a virtual event. Like some of these three day big virtual events not even hybrid I'm like I'm not even touching hybrid like the the Russell Bronson's and the Tony Robbins of the world can handle hybrids like Suzanne Evans, the you know Danella Burnett's and tell him that sins okay, you know, maybe hybrids mean no way in hell would I touch a hybrid at this point in time, just because I haven't even done like a virtual or a a live but don't think there's anything

Linda Cain: 00:19:09

right but a smart but even a virtual even a 3d virtual for you could be money making even if you have 3040 people in the virtual people think oh, my, my event wasn't a success because I only had 30 People in my virtual event. Good Lord, those 30 people came because they wanted to have what it was that you offered. Don't worry about the numbers, meet them know who's in the room and have something that you know, they want and you will have sells you you should not make less than 25k in a weekend in a virtual event. It should actually be more, but depending if you have 30 people and you sell eight people into something, it should you know, it should

Linda Cain: 00:19:57

Catharine O'Leary: be more trying to Who to say that this is not a get rich quick tactic? No, no, not, you know, like, you can just put on one event for a year and make a million dollars. That is not what we're saying, No, there's a lot that goes into, like, you have a whole business beside, you know, behind an event an event is your upfront, you know, conversation marketing piece, the, the, you know, the way that people get to know like, and trust you. That's, it's a massive part of marketing. It's, it's one of, you know, a variety of different ways that you can market your business. It works for some people, it doesn't work for others, it is not the only thing that you probably should do for your business. If it is that's great. Right. But you know, like, just it's not a get rich, quick, we don't do get rich quick. No.

Linda Cain: 00:20:49

And and I'm all about the realness of events. So when you see people posting, oh, I had a three day then I made 1,000,002. What did it cost you to do that? So like, up like a production in a studio can cost you anywhere from 25k base. That's what the planner and the studio costs all the way up to 100k base with a planner in the studio team, depending on where you go, and what kind of studio you have. And then you that, and and if it's in person, it might even be more than that. Because you might have hotel costs, and hotel rentals and room attrition and all of those things to deal with what? So when somebody says, Oh, I made a million something, it's like, well, what were your costs? I bet your costs were at least 300 bucks, at least. And so and then you have your team, and then what does it cost to run the program? And so you have 20 people that paid you 25k to be in a program? That's great. What does it cost you to run that 25k program per person? Yeah, we have a client, we just had to work through all of their numbers with them. That came aboard, because I'm like, You're doing three, you're charging 25k for people to work with you for the year, you're taking them on three retreats in person retreats as part of the fulfillment, your your costs alone are about three grand a person for the retreats, by the time you figure housing, food, they get themselves there, but you still have housing and food. So at the end of the day, out of that 25k, their profit line is only about 8k. So when you see somebody say, Oh, I made a million dollars, okay, or I'm or it's 25k to be in my program, what's your profit line, your profit line might only be about eight or 10k? Yeah, so No, and that's so important. So using these tactics of smaller events, or streamlining your event process and creating an event driven business where it's more about the cultivated, right person in the room at 30 and 50 people, even 1020 people, if it's if it's in person, where there's a higher ticket that comes in and you have that more serious person who's going to do the work during the weekend, and then sell them into your high ticket offer, the chances are, you're gonna hit your financial goals with less stress, less pressure, more happiness and joy around it, because you're going to be with people that really want to be with you. And, and you don't have to have the big, huge fancy funnels and a huge, huge list. Yeah, especially the retreats, Catharine, because the the retreats, if you think about it, do you know 10 to 12 people that would go to Europe with you, and pay to go to Europe? Probably?

Linda Cain: 00:23:48

Catharine O'Leary: I think so. Yeah. Like

Linda Cain: 00:23:50

when you really sit down and think about who you know, that knows somebody that knows somebody, those people would probably, you know, to get training on, on what you sell about assessments and how I, you could, you can help me create five, six assessments than I need in my business in one weekend. That training alone would you know, I'd pay $3,000 for the weekend just to get that training. Yeah. And then how my costs on top of it. You could offer a package anywhere from five to 10 It's 10, especially if we're going to go to Italy together and Tuscany or something. Right. And so if you think about that, it's easy, it's easier to fill that 1012 people to come in and work workshop, a particular topic. You know, I definitely

Linda Cain: 00:24:42

Catharine O'Leary: I could definitely see an Ireland trip for me. You know, like, Come come come home with me. And and you know, let's go to St. James. Let's go to Trinity College. Let's go to Grafton Street. Let's you know, go to Wexford and Waterford and so One. Okay, so anyway, I love this, I just kind of wanted to go back because one of the one of the there's a couple of all there's so many golden nuggets. I had not myself with things like webinars and challenges into events, quote, unquote, like, you know, events for me or even summits, which, I mean, obviously someone does an event now. But I had like events tended to be more for like, a three day you pitch on the, you know, the second day, and then you repeat your third enrollment program, but, but your definition of events is a lot broader. Which is interesting, as a strategy point of view, as strategy partner, as I'm thinking through, like, my next year's calendar, like, getting you involved or getting somebody you know, like, getting Blue Diamond involved in that conversation is a, okay, regardless of whether it's called an event or not, like what do we need to do to, like, you know, get people into a room, whether it's a virtual room or whatever, whether it's a challenge, whether it's a, a, you know, a retreat, or, you know, whatever that looks like, and I didn't even know you could do virtual escape rooms. So like, that's yeah, totally, totally new. So I love this idea that it can be really out of the box, too. It can

Linda Cain: 00:26:26

it can, we, when COVID hit, we had nine clients that immediately like, panic, and I'm like, don't panic. We'll go, let's go zoom. Don't panic, we can figure this out. We even had a paint party, we mailed out paint kits, everybody, we had an artist come in and walked everybody through, everybody had their like little board up, their camera was facing their board, and they did a paint party. We did a wine tasting, the wine tasting was really fun, because we had a winery that the guy put a GoPro camera on his head. And then he walked through the winery and held the grapes up to us. And we got to look at the grapes and see the grapes. And then he went back and we had mailed out little splits of wine. And he did the wine tasting and everybody opened up their little splits. And, and for the people that didn't drink wine, they got they got like a, like a non alcoholic, like a pair and dry wine weeks. And you know, it was just, it was really magical. And it was so cool. Because he we he walked the tour of the winery as if you were in person, and you got to walk that tour. And so that was really fun. And we had another guy who designed as escape rooms, which was really, really a lot of fun. And, and very interesting how he did that no one is ended up escaping their room, by the way. Wow. Yeah, it was very challenging escape room. But it was so much fun. And everybody had a lot of fun trying to figure out how to do the codes that, you know, unlock the next code that unlock the next code that unlock the next code. And that eventually, once you got to the end, and you opened it, you got to leave your you know, you got to leave the Zoom Room. But, but it was a lot of fun. And it's just your creativity. And that's what I love about when I get to work with clients because clients can't often see what I call that six figures hiding in their business. And so when I look at somebody's business, I can see like if you do this, this and this, and it'll give you, you know, a six figure income. It's why I called the event driven business, because everything derives to that profit that comes from events. So if you think about it, the one day workshops, the micro classes, the master classes, masterminds challenges, summits, webinars, open houses, gosh, even your podcasts, even podcast speaking on stages, when you look at the framework of you know, we talk about a speaker business or we talk about a, you know, a life business or health business that they're the event driven business is all those components that get us to the event that we want to do for the year. And so that's why I just lumped it all together because a challenge is an event it if you have to do a funnel, you have to market you have to bring people in, you have to meet them in the challenge. You have to have, you know connection with them, you have to have things that they get to do every day that moves them along. Another one that's similar to a challenge. It's I call it a micro event, or a masterclass but you break it down in a week to two weeks and you meet every hour. And you can do the first day for free and invite people win. And then if they like it, then they can pay 100 bucks to save for the rest of the week, it's a gamble. Because you don't know how many people will stay with you, there will be people that will stay with you, but you don't know that all of them will. But that's one concept of doing it, or they come to a 90 minute slash opening session, and then you sell into the week long. For 101 97 597, whatever you want to do. And then you make an offer, at the end of that, you know, Thursday or Friday, you make an offer for them to continue with you. The thing that's nice about breaking it down that way is that they get a homework assignment, and then they come back and that homework assignment is done, then they get another one. So that again, anytime that as a consumer, we can get little chunks, work on it, make them step to the next direction, and work on it make a step to the next direction wins, you're gonna, you're gonna feel like you want to work with that person, because you can see those immediate results. And what was happening, I think in the industry is we were bombarded by so many events in the last couple years. And a lot of them being online. And it was taking the in person and putting it online and it was just that constant of a presentation a presentation. 15 minutes, come back another presentation, the presentation, we suffered a little bit of burnout. And now as we are learning from that and moving forward, we're getting more creatives. So 90 minute sessions with an hour break another 90 minute session with an hour break, you can keep people all day, you can keep people three days, if you do that kind of a formula. Because it allows them they know that they're going to have this hour, they can, you know, two or three hours in the day that they can go and pick up kids or you can make a phone call or keep their business going that they need to do on their end. Getting people to I think the the two biggest challenges right now virtually are getting people to get their video on. And to switch the mindset and pretend not pretend but switch the mindset to I made the decision to be here. So I'm going to give it my full attention. Yeah, as if I was physically there. And

Linda Cain: 00:32:21

Catharine O'Leary: we're and we're dealing with the situations in the online world, at least where show up rates are down. Conversion rates are down. I mean, it's harder to fill a room with these, you know, these kind of events, the webinars, you know, like, like, you know, registrations are down and all the rest of it. And I have been kind of searching a little bit for you know, what's the key to that? Or, you know, what can we be doing differently? And I think I'm super excited about this conversation, because I think it is in the creativity. And I think it is if you think less about the profit, and more about the like the promo the program, and the you know, the pre work and so on. If you think more about serving your clients and having making sure that they have an awesome time, the profits will come. Yeah, so but I think that we've gotten so like in these boxes of oh, five day challenge and oh, like, you know, a masterclass or, you know, webinar and like, we're not thinking outside the box. Enough. And that's why I love this idea of, you know, getting you and Blue Diamond involved early to be able to say, well, let's, I don't know, let's go to Ireland, like, or let's, you know, let's, let's do Mardi Gras or, you know, let's, let's do something virtually the student escape route room and, you know, somebody wins a VIP something, something different. And I think that that's the key. So this has been great Linda, even with the power outage. But how do people get in touch with you, I think you do have a free gift for us. So people we

Linda Cain: 00:34:03

do have our profitable events, the free guide, the Complete Guide, which where we break down those for virtual in person retreat and hybrid. There's some little bit of exercises to do in it and lots of tips that will kind of help you decide which format you want. If you want to stay virtual or if you want to do hybrid. Or if you want to, you know, do a retreat. And then in that they can book a call with me a discovery call. Ask any questions, bring it if you we are right for you. If you've never done one and you want to do something, we can help you figure it out and make it profitable. If you are doing events and even if you're a seasoned event planner, we can show you how to monetize it, make it more experiential. We see what's happening in the marketplace and our eyes are there so we really have a pulse on what you can do and if you think about when I look at my art successful clients, they're doing a variety of a challenge, some webinars, maybe a cruise, maybe a destination, and a typical enrollment event. But instead of focusing all their effort on one big, large three day enrollment event, we've gone down to what are we doing this quarter that's going to drive traffic make profit, what are we going to do the next quarter that's going to drive, drive traffic, make profits. So one quarter might be a challenge, the next quarter might be a retreat. The next quarter might be, you know, a master class or you sell into a mastermind. So you can get very creative and the thing that I love about it is it gives you variety. But it also keeps simplifies it so that you don't feel overwhelmed in. And we've seen it with any and you know, some of our clients, and you've seen it in the past, where it's like, oh, read my events in six weeks, and I haven't even gotten my marketing out. Well, good luck filling it, we needed, we needed six months, which is why we started six months ago, you know, so yeah, and keep in mind, I would love your audience to keep in mind that if you're gonna do something virtual, it's three to four months to get that field to really get it filled. If you like, if you're looking for 100 people, a stick people, because you're gonna have to get about 175 to 200 registrations in order to have about 80 to 100 people. And then if it's in person, it's usually four to six months.

Linda Cain: 00:36:33

Catharine O'Leary: That's good. That's good to know. Well, thank you, Linda, for joining me today. I learned a ton. And I just I love this idea of being creative and you know, thinking outside the box, and I think I think if people can get a little bit more strategic about how they're connecting with their, their clients, then I think that you know, that's just going to help everyone all around. So thank you so much. And for everyone out there. Thank you for listening again to kick start the conversation, and we will connect with you next time.