Beyond Visibility: Why Being Seen Isn't the Only Key to Success with Cindy J

Catharine O'Leary: 00:00:00

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to kickstart the conversation. It is my great pleasure to have today Cindy Holbrook, who is the visibility whiz, she is going to be helping us through how to get visible with your business. But more than that, not just be visible, to be busy, but be visible to actually drive business, which is a big distinction. So I want everyone to be listening closely. But just to give you a quick intro to Cindy, Cindy, is, as I said, the visibility whiz, she guides, coaches, authors, speakers and service based business owners to step into who they are with outrageous confidence, which I love, get more visibility, influence their audience to take action, and earn more than enough to sustain the lifestyle of their dreams. So Cindy, welcome to kick started the conversation.

Cindy J: 00:00:54

Thank you, Catharine. It's a pleasure to be here, as we go

Catharine O'Leary: 00:00:57

through and we're talking about all things list leads, and you know, leveraging relationships as the visibility whiz, but also the person that connects to the back end of the money making wizardry, can you tell us a little bit more about how you're helping, you know, your coaches and, and your clients kind of go through that process.

Cindy J: 00:01:18

What I say is visibility plus influence equals profits. So you need the visibility, you need to know how to get in front of your ideal audience. A lot of people think that visibility, any visibility is good, which isn't necessarily true. If you, your target audiences, single moms and you're visible to a million senior citizens, it's not going to do you much good. And so people really have to know that they have to be where their audiences, but they don't have to go find their clients. And then once they're in front of their ideal audience, they need to be clear with their message, but they need to know how to influence people to take action, you can't just tell people to take action, you need to be able to influence them, and share with them why it will benefit them to take the actions, encouragement, etc. And once you combine those two, the profits start coming easily. Because now people know you like you, and trust you to solve their problems.

Catharine O'Leary: 00:02:28

Okay, so there. So that sounded really easy, but there was a lot to unpack. And that was like a little summary of a lot of golden nuggets in there. So first of all, you know, being visible to your target audience, right? I talked about this all the time where you'd rather I would rather be in a room full of 100 people that are all my target audience and 90 people by then in a stadium full of 10,000, where the same 90 People are somewhere in the stadium, and I'm trying to find them. Right. Because by the time I find them, I'm tired. And I'm probably not going to you know, serve them well. So really making sure that you are you know, finding your you know, or being where your ideal clients are, as opposed to being everywhere, right, like so not casting the net so broad, that you're just like you said, you know, like in front of a whole bunch of senior citizens when you're trying to talk to to parents or moms or something like that, because people do that all the time, don't they?

Cindy J: 00:03:31

Oh, they do? Definitely. A lot of it is being clear on your message. So I love it. Yeah, I mean, it would be great to fine tune those 100 people and there are ways to do that. But a lot of times when people are starting out they need to go to the bigger stadium. I call up the the lake, my husband's an avid fisherman, and he fishes for bass. Now when I first started dating him, I never knew that fishing like this existed. I've learned a lot about fishing since I've been with him. But you know, you have a trout person, they just grow them. There are losers out there and they sit back and drink their beer and wait for a bite. But whenever you're bass fishing, you're constantly constantly doing something, you have to throw your lewer There's certain lures that will catch bass, and you're constantly like moving your fishing pole and doing different things like like frog things, and he'll go like this to make it look like the frogs jumping. So you're constantly doing something. It's a very active way of fishing versus trout fishing, which is what I always talk fishing was before I met him. And so you have the lake and you have all these different fish in it. You have the track you have the bass, you have the catfish, but people are shocked with my husband, he will go out there and he will typically catch a fish within 10 minutes. And these people that have been there all day long. Like how did you do? Do that. And it's because he knows he knows the language of the bass. He knows where they are. And he's been fishing since he was like three years old. And he's very good. And this is how we have to be when we're in these big audiences is we have to know, which is our message, our message is going to pull out our, our ideal clients. So even if you're in front of that audience of 10,000, and you get 90 People that say yes, that means you've done a great job of fishing out for lack of a better word, your ideal clients.

Catharine O'Leary: 00:05:37

Okay, so a big

Cindy J: 00:05:39

con would be like, you know, we both have learned from Amman, in Amman West talks about your target market, your target market is the big pond, both you and I, we work with coaches, author speakers in small business, a big pond, yeah, that's the big pond. And that's where you have to be. But our ideal client is very personal, ideal client, you know, it's just like, if you are looking for a mate, you know that you know, what personality you want them to, to have, what type of sense of humor they have, what hobbies do they like, you need to mesh, and that's where, again, honing in on your message, you're going to mesh with your ideal client. And you have to know what you love about them and what they love about you. I always say, whenever you know exactly who you want to attract, then nobody is going to if you know you want a Cadillac, nobody's going to sell you a Harley. Yeah, this way, we know who our clients are our ideal clients, and they're very easy to sell to, because they're hardwired to love us. And we're hardwired to love them.

Catharine O'Leary: 00:06:48

Right. So I love this because it's a little bit of an expansion of what I've been talking about with the with the analogy I gave about, you know, being in a room versus a stadium. I mean, the room is your ideal clients. And still like not every not every ideal client is going to be quite ready to hit the switch. So that's great. But I love the idea of the stadium being still your ideal client pool or your your pond, the bigger pond, and your messaging or your three, eight, the 3am question that you're trying to solve for it. That's what's drawing your target audience to you. Not sorry, not your target audience. That's what's driving your ideal client within your target audience to you. So you're just kind of expanded the the analogy a little bit, which I love. So thank you for that.

Cindy J: 00:07:33

I want to go back to because so many people, it's like, where do I find clients? Where do I find clients? Where do I find clients? And that statement is like, sort of irritates me. Because to me, it's like you are an ambulance chaser attorney, or I've always pictured like, you know, we've all been in malls, and we walked down a mob of people, Mrs. Fields, cookies, and Cinna bonds, don't run out and grab us or they don't run out and say your taste this tastes this. They have the aroma. They have their signs, three samples. And we go and we take a bite of the Cinnabon offset, and we're buying a dozen of them, right. So this is it's the same thing is with your clients, the people that are placed in the malls and the bonds, Mrs. Fields, I mean, they're smart, and they're positioned very well in any mall that you go to. And that's again, the malls you have their big pond. But the people that actually walk up and take the sample is now a very high converting lead. Yeah, it's a very Yeah. And so that's what we want. That's why we need to be able to talk the language of our ideal client, because they're just attracted to us because we're giving them what they want.

Catharine O'Leary: 00:08:47

Okay, so I absolutely love this analogy. So let's let's go back to the mall. So the mall is like your target audience, right and as people are walking by, some people will keep walking. your lead magnet per se is your sample of the Cinnabon that will draw people into the Cinnabon store or this and upon storefront and actually buy because you've attracted your ideal client within your target audience to stop stop scroll stop the walk Stop stop by and by the dozen or so or maybe baker's dozen of Cinnabon. So that's that's cool. I like that. And I'm hungry

Cindy J: 00:09:26

Sample buys. But then not everybody that has a sample is going to buy but that's fine. But even though they don't buy then most people will take samples will come back and buy later.

Catharine O'Leary: 00:09:40

Right? Or Or they might walk by then but kind of think oh that smells good. But I don't have time and then they come back later. Right? So

Cindy J: 00:09:49

that is a 3am question. It's knowing what language your clients say when you start. First one I did market research in A different way, let's say because I'd always done it. But I learned a new way. I was very surprised. I interviewed 25 people in each one of them said, I want somebody to hold my hand through the process. Now, I had always said, I will guide you through the process, it's the same thing. But my ideal clients want me to say I'm gonna hold their hand. So it changed the way that I speak because you need to speak their language. And so often, and this is how you influence people is by speaking their language, you're mirroring what they, what they say what they want, and then they feel connected to you. So it's with stories, but it's also with knowing their language, because so many of us will say, you know, my example I'll guide you through the process or hold your hand through the process is the same thing. But people react different to the two different things. Well, people

Catharine O'Leary: 00:10:59

want one and they lost by the other one because they may not read it, they may not catch them. So and I love the fact that knowing that 3am question in your clients language, something that a hammer all the time and I talked about all the time I talked about it in my close my client whisperer masterclass, as well as in quizzes that convert, you know, course, you gotta you do, you got to know that 3am question in their language. Because I think what a lot of entrepreneurs do is that they get to the other side of the transformation, they create all this material, they create the offer, they create the you know, the the product, they're on the other side, they forget, they forget what it was like, back in the day when you had the problem that started you on this past to begin with, and like, you know, what, what exactly was said? Or what, you know, in my case, I, you know, I, I help entrepreneurs create client attraction systems, no one ever woke up at 3am wishing I had a better client to try because that is not what they wake up wondering. They wake up thinking, jeez, how do I get more clients? Or how do I get better quality leads, so that, you know, I'm not spending so much time with freebie seekers and tire kickers. So that three in question is massive.

Cindy J: 00:12:19

And also, I want to reiterate, sometimes we just don't even realize how we talk because of whatever. When I worked in social services for 20 years, and when I began coaching, probably good 70 to 80% of the people that I got on phone calls with were social service clients, and like they couldn't afford to pay me they can afford my crisis. And it took me you know, my supervisor, my, my mentor kept telling me, Cindy, you're not in social services anymore. You're in. But because for 20 years, I had spoken to social service people, I didn't realize how much I was bringing it into my business. With talking even though I thought I was like helping more. It was like who I was attracting. And I see people do this all the time. Sometimes very educated people will talk like way up here, like, you know, all of us like, I've been dealing with an attorney, right? And it's always like, Hey, tell me in my language, not in your language. And our doctors, you know, gosh, doctors can confuse the heck out of us with our terminologies. And so, so many people, because we know what we want to teach, it's been laid on us, we have this deep desire to help transform somebody's life. And however you're transforming their lives, or their businesses, but you have to step out of you because you are the expert, and you're using words that are either detracting or attracting your ideal clients. And that's why it's so important to get into their language.

Catharine O'Leary: 00:13:54

It is and they also have to be able to envision themselves on the other side. So using a whole bunch of language or jargon, or, or this, you know, like, it's just gonna make them think, Oh, well, that's not me, because I don't even know I don't even know what the hell you're talking about. So that's obviously not, you know, like, you know, not for me, so you don't you want to be careful of that. But so I love I love the idea of the big pond to get, you know, to fish in the way that you need to fish for your ideal client or the sample that you need to put out for our ideal client to get the fish in the boat or to get the 12 Cinnabons. Now that is that enough, though, like I think it's I think we need to go to this

Cindy J: 00:14:40

fish in the boat. It's definitely not because you have to know what you're in DLs mean the past year it's really watching people and working with so many different clients at different levels of their business. I noticed that At a lot of them that were struggling is because they were not following through with what I call money making activities. Now, there's a fine line between a money making activity and a visibility activity in a lead generating ability, activity. Now, if you're speaking, and sometimes we have to do all three, for whatever reasons, sometimes universe speaking is simply for visibility to get known. And that's all it's for. If you ever do a TED talk, they don't allow you to sell. In the next couple of months, I'll be doing an action talks for an app called Action era. And again, you're not allowed to sell. So it's solely for visibility, and likeability and trustworthiness just to get your name out there. So sometimes that's fine. But know that that may down the road leads to clients. But that activity is not a money making activity, that activity is a visibility activity. So then if you're speaking, and you're allowed to offer free gifts, such as I will be offering everybody my seven money making activities guide, then this is a lead generating activity. So with the lead generating activity to speak, whether it's video in person or anything, know that that lead generating activity, you need to add some money making activities in the back end of that. So for example, after somebody downloads, something, we've all seen it where the thank you page says, hey, buy this for $17. Now, that's a money making activity, because you've changed the thank you page to sell something. But also in your follow up emails, if you're trying to sell a low end or high end product, it's a money generating activity. But a lot of people don't do that with their follow up nurture sequences. They're just nurturing, and they're teaching and teaching and teaching and talking. But they're not saying, Hey, I have this free, I have this program that you might be interested in for $17 $97, whatever, or they're never asking people to come on a sales call with them. So it's just a lead generating activity. And if you're not asking your leads for money, you're leaving a lot of money on the table. 85% of sales come from email online. 85%. That's a hefty sum. Yet so many people think I'm invisible. I have I have 10,000 people on my Facebook group. Yay. How big is your list? Oh, I don't need a list because I have these 10,000 people in my Facebook group. And I'm like, no, no, no, no Facebook, that you don't own those people. It's not something that it's not rented land. It's yeah. And Facebook can take it away in a heartbeat. Yep. And does and does. Yes, I had, I was making about before I became a coach, I was doing affiliate marketing through Google ads. I had a 300 page website, because I had reviewed every single diet that was online at that time. And I would get commissions. Anytime somebody got on my website and purchased. I was placing Google ads. And, and I had worked my way up with SEO to be in the top 10 of a lot of these diets. And so I was averaging netting about 5k a month, and I was this close to quitting my day job. And Google slapped me and my business started just inches away. Right? Yeah, I was so happy that I never left my day job because it was boom gone. However, that was a lot of number crunching. It was a lot of stuff that I don't I can do but it's not my passion. It was right after that, that I found coaching which is my passion, right? But But I don't I've seen this so often where people lose their Instagram, their their Facebook's and stuff and if your business is ever evaluated to see how much money it's worth, it goes by the size of your list email.

Catharine O'Leary: 00:19:12

You gotta you guys I mean this, this this whole podcast is all about leads list and leverage. So it's all about your list and it's true. It is it's it is it's your email list that that is an asset not your followers love your followers don't don't get me wrong, but get them on your email list exactly through a through like lead magnet.

Cindy J: 00:19:37

I always say all roads should lead to list buys my list to build my Facebook group I use my Facebook group to build my list right it's it's a cross promotion because this gives me more ways but also on if somebody's reading your email. They're not distracted like they aren't any social security, Social Security, social media. platform. Yeah, because you don't have like, hey, Katherine's going live, oh, I have to go see Catherine. And then they leave you. Right. And also, even though you may have a, you know, the average open rates about 20 25% of emails, and that is still higher than the algorithm writes a social media, right? And this is not

Catharine O'Leary: 00:20:22

to say that you can't use social media for utility,

Cindy J: 00:20:25

right? I am. I am 100% for social media for lots of reasons. But you have to get the email if you want to make money. Yep. Yeah, that's, that's it. I love social media, I use social media. I have been learning a lot more about Instagram real. So I'm playing with these different reels and stuff. I enjoy it. But don't think you have to be on social media either. Now, people say, Oh, I know, I have to be on Facebook to succeed. But I hate Facebook. I know I have to be on LinkedIn to succeed, but I hate LinkedIn. I know people that are on the zero social media platforms that have seven figure businesses. I know people that are only on Instagram that has six, seven figure businesses. I even know people that are only on Twitter that has seven figure business. So you don't need to be everywhere you need to do what you love. I always say I want you to create a fun and profitable business. Don't be doing strategies you hate. Because you're going to create a business you hate. You have to use strategies to build your business that you find fun and interesting that align with your personal beliefs and strengths. Because that's one of my Forte's where I help my clients discover what those strategies are, that they're going to enjoy. When you enjoy doing something you're going to it's easier to be consistent with it. But

Catharine O'Leary: 00:21:51

you gotta You gotta love it. And people we've talked about this before. Yeah, it's gotta like,

Cindy J: 00:21:56

and then with the emails, again, some people and I know, you know, people like this, too. Hey, they're really good. You know, they get your quiz, and they're getting all these people and their emails. But oh, I don't want to email my list too much, because I don't want to bug them. And I go, You know what you're doing to these people? It's like, you had this really hot date. And then he ghosted you now you are ghosting these people, they were like, Oh, my God, I'm really interested in this person. I get their their free gift. And now they ghosted me. So if you haven't, if a date did that, too, you're gonna think, you know, your choice words for him, Jerk. Jerk jerk, that's a nice way of putting it was in my head,

Catharine O'Leary: 00:22:45

not the four letter word that you're thinking of, I know.

Cindy J: 00:22:50

But the, but you do have, you know, so therefore you don't want to go to them, they signed up for your list, because they want to know about you. So you have to let them you have to email them. And I always say your email list is a revolving door, you need to continuously have list building activities. And with your list, you need to be selling to your list at least 20% of the time. So following the old 8020 rule, right? So you can tell and it can all be in one email, you can have like 80% juicy information, and 20% selling or you can send them if you're sending five emails a week, four of them can just be juicy information and the fifth one can be to sell but make sure that you are asking for sales. If you don't ask for sale, you know what, you're never gonna get it. And so, this is a that to me, some of the best money making activities is utilizing your email plus speaking those you know you that's where the money happens a lot of times, but they go hand in hand and so many people that are struggling, they do everything but ask for the sale.

Catharine O'Leary: 00:24:09

Yes, you get Yeah, it doesn't like it doesn't help you to have the prettiest you know, funnel and then all the bells and the whistles and this fantastic program that has all this great stuff that's in the membership portal if nobody buys it and sees it. So it's you know, like you gotta get the sale folks, this is not a hobby anymore. You're you're building a business

Cindy J: 00:24:35

and even even a lot of times to go back to the mall analogy. If you're going to miss a few of cookies taste a sample or you go to Cinnabon and have a sample. A lot of times they will say would you like to buy one would you like to buy one? Right? And but they're not chasing their clients and so many people they think if they have like you said the perfect funnel, you don't have to have anything, you don't have to have an email. You don't have to have a website, you have nothing. You can still get a client. And it's just asking but so many people are afraid of asking because they're afraid of rejection. They're afraid of the the rejection is a huge one who they don't want to ask or they're afraid of being. They don't want to be salesy. I don't wanna be salesy. salesy, you know,

Cindy J: 00:25:25

I, when I was a divorce coach, I had a client, he was the sales manager for a multibillion dollar company that sold million dollar equipment. And every time, gosh, she worked with me for about four years, or two years. I have six month packages, and he had renewed with me three times. But every time he renewed with me, he would like laugh at me and go, Cindy, you are the softest sale that I've ever seen. But it works for you. Because unlike if you don't want to work with me, and I found in the past, if I talk you into it, it's going to be horrible. Don't Don't ever do that. And, and so I've asked a lot, how do I overcome objections? And I'm like, what, really? And truly sometimes you have to see, is that over? Are you really overcoming an objection? Or is this just an excuse they throw out there? Because that's there's really no. So basically, your job is to get them to make the best decision for them, versus to push them into buying. So I am not an objection overcome or never have been never will be. I can tell whenever somebody's really searching for a way. And I will gladly help them. My first mentor, my first high end program that I purchased was a $10,000 program. And I just couldn't afford it. Like literally I had no money. And he said, he goes, Do you really want to join this program? I said, Yes. He said, Would you like me to help you figure out how you can raise the money? I said, Yeah. And he told me he was really cute. But he told me he's like, Okay, I had a group program that I was selling for $47 a month. He said he wanted me to call up everybody in the group, and tell them that they buy a year for $470. And then he wanted me to see if I could get anybody else in the group for 470. And he gave me a week to do it. And my first thing was, oh, I'm going to Georgia next week for my grandson's bootcamp graduation. So can we make it two weeks? And he said, Are you telling me there's no phones in Georgia. But I really wanted to be in that program. And I was in that program. Because I set aside time in the hotel room in Georgia, and made those phone calls, I emailed my list, and I made what I needed to get into that program. So this is totally different. He didn't he didn't over he did not have to sit there and talk me into it. I wanted it and really helped me find a way to get it. And this is how I like to work with my clients, which is totally different.

Catharine O'Leary: 00:28:11

So let's let's talk about how you you work had like, how can people connect with you? How can people work with you?

Cindy J: 00:28:19

Oh, of course, first of all, I have the free gift seven making activities. So whenever you go that it's a guide, there's the seven of them, I tell you some other things, interesting tidbits in there about emails and getting clients and making money. Also, you can always visit Cindy J holbrook.com. Just to check out my website or anything but do go and download the seven money making activities. Because you are going to besides the seven money making activities, I also share with you five key areas that result in 80% of your income. You know, everything breaks down to the 80 to 20%, you know the 8020 rule, and then also three steps to create your profitable business. And I talked about a little bit more about the visibility versus lead generating versus money making activities because so much of so much of a stop just before we make the sale. And then I have a list of things you could do daily. I do suggest everybody tried to take do one of these daily, some of them will only take you 10 or 15 minutes to do but the more you do money making activities, the more profits you're going to see. You can also set aside four hours of your time each week to 100% Focus on money making activities, but rather focusing instead of putting all your time and focus into trying to get leads or speaking gigs or what have you. You need to utilize Time for the money making activities.

Catharine O'Leary: 00:30:03

Right? So so that was not just one gift that was a basket. So thank you for your best report. That's

Cindy J: 00:30:11

all a report in there. So that's all on one little report.

Catharine O'Leary: 00:30:14

Okay. Perfect. So, thank you again, Cindy for being here and give me your formula. Again. Visibility plus influence equals profits equals profits, visibility plus influence equals profits. That's what you all have to walk away with. So thank you very much for for joining us here on kickstart the conversation, and we look forward to continuing the conversation next week. Thanks, everyone.